Native Passability: How Well Can Someone Else Tell?

For me, in your English I saw a few little things. I notice that you sometimes use **on** instead of **in** in some collocations, these two prepositions trip up all non native speakers. Other collocations that weren't quite right were **she could tell well** and **he could tell well**. A native speaker would more likely say s/he could easily tell, or quickly tell, not tell well. The collocation tell well is 100% natural in your questions, but less so in your third person statements. Using single nouns where countable plurals are more natural and logical in the given context is a common give away. I teach English, so I am used to spotting these things daily. Your English is wonderful 👍.

What usually works for me is mixing national vernacular and spelling. I've seen and read enough American, British, and Australian English to know how they differ. For example, "My mates got banged up and went to the hospital, but I didn't realize because I was puking in the alley nearby. I went to the operating theater, but I had to chuck my dimmies in the trash before they let me in. I learnt my lesson, eh? That sentence is preposterous but has a mix of phrasing, vocab, and spelling that can only only come from a non-native speaker. Unrelated to texting: I once met a Danish woman with amazing English, but after just a minute of speaking to her, I accurately guessed that she learned her English primarily from Australian and mid-Atlantic American teachers.

One thing I noticed in your post is that you tend to favour ‘I am’ over ‘I’m’. I’m not sure if that’s done on purpose.

Since. People using since for amount of time. I have been doing this since 5 years. > I have been doing this FOR five years. dead giveaway for me. or a lot of "Let me tell you something" or not swallowing vowels

The ordering is the same actually! I think this example is touching on a different issue that's worth commenting on. Why do we not have peanut butter? This is the grammatically correct, uncontracted form. Its structure is 1:1 with the Portuguese, except for the existence of *do.* In English, *do* is simply necessary. When contracted, the *not* attaches to the auxiliary *do.* Why don't we have peanut butter?

**Actually a lot of your sentence structures strike me as foreign. I am American and come from a large population center with many non native speakers. I tend not to comment on anyone’s English unless directly asked. So others may be noticing but letting the mistakes slip by as unimportant. Some of your common mistakes are sentence order, word order, over explaining things that are implied already, and repeating yourself for emphasis. Some of these errors can be typos bot not when you repeat them like this** **I’ll put strikethroughs on your post where I see it as awkward and my suggestion will be in bold:** I am a native Portuguese speaker that has been using English for ~~almost half~~ **most** of my ~~entire~~ life on an almost daily basis. I often text native English speakers online for months and they ~~almost never~~ **usually don’t** notice that I am ~~actually~~ a foreigner because of my ~~choices~~ **choice** of written words. ~~The last two times that someone could tell that I am not a native because of my choice of words happened months ago:~~ **this is awkward I would say it differently** The first happened because I ~~did~~ let "fLorest" spelled with a "L" like the Portuguese version "floresta" slip instead of using the English version "forest". **this is in the wrong order, I’d say I let Florest slip then explain that it’s the Portuguese version. The way you have it is confusing to an English reader.** ~~That~~ **it or this** happened when I was texting a woman online because I was ~~too focused~~thinking about something else ~~I was working on to the side.~~**you have a habit of using too many phrases that mean the same thing. I think you’re doing it for emphasis, but to a native English speaker the arrangement is confusing. I would say I was chatting online rather than texting** I was surprised that she ~~immediately~~ could tell ~~well~~ **immediately** that I am a foreigner ~~just~~ because of ~~one~~ **a** single written word. The second time ~~happened when~~ I was ~~also~~ texting an Italian guy online that could immediately tell ~~well~~ that I am not a native English speaker. I have asked him how he could tell ~~that well~~ because I was very curious, ~~then~~ he pointed out that Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese speakers have ~~the~~ **a** habit of dropping the word "it" in casual contexts like this: Unusual in English: "Ok, is interesting..." Usual en Español: "Ok, es interesante..." Usual em Português: "Ok, é interessante..." Usuale in Italiano: "Ok, è interessante..." Usual in English: "Ok, it's interesting..." How well can someone else tell that you are not a native and how well can you tell that someone is not a native because of choice of written words? **This is not how I would say it** Do you believe that Latin Americans and Latin Europeans can recognize each other easily because of word choices when utilizing a very different foreign language?**same here** Do ~~any of~~ you have any revealing habit**s** in written communication that out~~s~~ you as a not native speaker? **The answers to your questions:** **I can USUALLY tell when someone is not native.** **Yes there are a few tells that can tell you someone’s native language.** **I am a native speaker but have certain regional affectations that will let you know where I’m from.**

Some of the ways I can tell: 1. While there are all sorts of ways to do typos online, sometimes there is a clue that the mistake was from a different keyboard layout. English tends to use the QWERTY layout. So R and T are adjacent. But if I see a typo that swaps an R out for a P, I suspect that they aren't using a typical English keyboard. 1. Overly literal translations. Usually not a thing with Spanish or other western European languages, but sometimes someone will say something like "Department of tax collection." Which, while totally understandable, isn't what it is called in any English speaking country I'm aware of. 1. I'm making an assumption of you being a Spanish language native here, but: the Spanish speaking world has quite a bit of dialect variance, similar to English possibly more so. Someone who is aware might be able to pick out a word or pronunciation choice. I've been told that Mexican Spanish is more crude than other dialects, similar to how Austrialian English uses more profanity than other English dialects. So someone might be able to pick up on that. Although, don't worry about it. Seriously. The margin of error for the English dialects is significant enough that I would be surprised if most people correctly identified a different native language instead of just being from a different English speaking country.

I honestly don’t assume someone is not a native based on their writing unless there are tons of errors. Plenty of native speakers are just lazy and will omit random words and stuff like that so I wouldn’t think too much of it

I’d say some tells for ESL in general are: * Their mistakes are not non-standard transcriptions of idiomatic spoken English, such as using a word with the wrong connotation instead of a homonym of the right one * False friends * Word choices that are unusual in context but not formally wrong (such as, “The second time happened when I was” instead of “The next time it happened, I was ...” or “The second time, I was ....”) * Mixing up prepositions, especially ones that their native language uses interchangeably, like in/on/at for native speakers of Romance languages or for/since for native speakers of German * Errors with articles, especially in front of count nouns, non-count nouns and adjectives (particularly native speakers of languages that don’t have indefinite articles) * Calques and literal translations of another language’s grammar (such as a native German speaker ending a yes-or-no question with, “or?” or calling a polar bear an “ice bear”) * Using progressive aspect either too rarely or too often * Not dropping the same words natives do * Overuse of passive (or any reflexive construction) where native speakers would use an indefinite “they” in casual speech (“They speak Portuguese in Brazil.”)

honestly? calling yourself a foreigner. if you’re from another country and don’t live here, i wouldn’t say “oh he’s a foreigner,” i’d say “oh he’s not from here, he’s from _______.” if you’re from another country and DO live here, i’d say “oh he immigrated from _____” or “oh he’s originally from _______.”

Reusing of words. Its a sign that you may be a non-native because you have locked yourself into only expressing yourself with one or two specific sentence structures or word formulas. (*Disregarding those words that have almost no synonyms.*) For example: you use "because" and "happened", a LOT. You use past perfect tense in your phrases over and over. You also stick to the: [(*Action/Feeling*), so/because (*Event*)], basically religiously. A native speaker would mix it up a lot more. From an early age we're taught to avoid using the same noun or verb twice in a paragraph *at all*, let alone in an essay. Also, English has so many different options in terms of the placement/combination of (*noun*), (*verb*), (*subject*)-- not to mention freedom in tenses and punctuation-- that, when you know them all naturally, it's easy to mix it up a little... depending on how you think your words should "sound", and whatever subtext you're trying to imply. "Mixing it up" is something that non-native speakers do less, because they learned to write/speak in an extremely rigid way, and most only learn enough to be understood-- not to sound/write pretty. By the way, there's one small thing that tips me off every time; it's something that possibly students aren't even thinking about when they say it. For whatever reason we teach non-natives to refer to their language of origin as their "mother tongue". Naturally, they then go on to think that *a native's* "mother tongue" must be English. While that's technically true, it's also kind of not. It's a phrase used only by learners, not by natives. Saying it immediately makes you stand out as someone who learned English late in life.

It's very easy to tell, from both written and spoken English. Unless it's a rehearsed speech (and even then), it's very rare for non-native speakers to make zero mistakes. And the mistakes that non-native speakers make are very different from the mistakes that native English speakers make. The ability to pinpoint a non-native speaker's first language I think is variable amongst native speakers. If you've spent a lot of time around non-native speakers, taught English, or learned a foreign language yourself, you're definitely more perceptive. For example, as soon as someone uses the word "doubt" instead of "question" in English, I know that I'm likely speaking to a Spanish speaker. Brazilians I can usually tell from the accent. "Culture" pronounced with the vowel in "good" rather than "up" is a dead giveaway. Even though Spanish speakers and Portuguese speakers make both of these mistakes, I know enough Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese myself to be able to distinguish between them, usually.

Well, I noticed in the first sentence you used "that" when I would have used who. And further down you said "I have asked him how he could tell" when I would say "I asked him how he could tell." I think the little prepositions or the slightly off tense choices are usually the way I know someone is not native. Germans are always translating "von" as "of" and half the time they are wrong.

OP I counted at least six things in your post that give you away. But both of my parents were English teachers.

Those two are interesting "catches" but I'm not surprised that sometimes people correctly intuit that their typing partner is of a different linguistic background. For example, I previously worked online customer support via internet chat. I am quite deaf myself but was 100% mainstreamed in school (to my loss). During one shift, I had a customer that I am fairly sure was deaf whose primary language was sign language. Everything was spelled correctly, but the word order was quite jarring. Sign languages often have little/no structural similarity to the spoken language(s) their local hearing community uses. My customer had a bog standard anglo name (like Jane Johnson), so unless she grew up in a non-anglophone country and learned English as an adult, I'm inclined to believe she was deaf.

Dropping the "it" would give it away. When I think of that, my mind immediately goes to a Russian man saying, "Yes, is very good." (Though it's common in many languages, that's just what comes to mind. It's probably because of how Russians have been depicted in movies, games, YouTube videos, etc.) Certain spellings can give it away, like writing "k" instead of "c" or "sch" instead of "sh" could point to someone being a German speaker, or writing "c" instead of "k" could point to someone being a Spanish/Italian/French speaker. Assuming you're using correct grammar and not using any strange words people don't usually say, it's generally pretty hard to tell. It's hard to think of an example where someone appeared to be a native speaker, but one little thing gave him away.

I’m wondering if the people asking you or pointing that out are also not “native speakers.” It’s sounds like they also know English from a technical point of view. In these three languages, it’s like this, but in English… I just can’t imagine having a conversation with someone and stopping the conversation to say, “Are you a native English speaker?” I mean maybe if I were curious and online, I’d say, what part of the world are you in or what country are you in? But I usually don’t point out linguistic mistakes during a conversation *especially* if I think that person’s second language is English. I’m not saying all English speakers have that attitude. I’m just questioning who are the people holding your feet to the fire on this. Native English speakers? Or people who *studied* English That doesn’t really answer your question at all though. Oh well. Food for thought.

Romance language speakers often add the preposition “to” when they’re saying they’re going “there.” Ex. “I plan to go there later.” Vs. “I plan to go to there later.”

>because of my choices of written words. I would think you were a foreigner after your second sentence. Should be "choice" of words. A native speaker would actually say "word choice" but "choice of written words" would not be a dead giveaway (despite sounding a bit strange).

Even just reading this I can tell it's not from a native English speaker. It's perfectly understandable, just some of the constructions are off, or overly formal, or oddly clunky. Other people have gone over specifics. This is how I would reword it all: I'm a native Portuguese speaker who's been using English daily for over half my life. I often text native English speakers online, sometimes for months, they almost never notice that I am actually a foreigner due to my word choices. The last two times that anyone could tell that I'm not native based on my word choices was months ago: The first happened because I let a "fLorest" (with a "L" like the Portuguese version "floresta") slip instead of using the English "forest". It also happened when I was texting a woman online, because I was too focused thinking about something else I was working on. I was surprised that she could immediately tell that I am a foreigner, just because of one single written word. The second time it happened was when I was texting an Italian guy. He could also immediately tell that I am not a native English speaker. I asked him how he could tell that easily, because I was very curious, then he pointed out that Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese speakers have the habit of dropping the word "it" in casual contexts like this: Unusual in English: "Ok, is interesting..." Usual en Español: "Ok, es interesante..." Usual em Português: "Ok, é interessante..." Usuale in Italiano: "Ok, è interessante..." Usual in English: "Ok, it's interesting..." How well can someone else tell that you are not a native and how well can you tell that someone is not a native because of their word choices? Do you believe that Latin Americans and Latin Europeans can easily recognize each other because of word choices when utilizing a foreign language? Do any of you have any revealing habits in written communication that out you as a non-native speaker?

Tell well. Probably just say something like "he could immediately tell..." no well needed Think that lotsa english speakers who write in english online dont usually write real good if that makes sense. Tend to write how they talk - that just comes natural. The way you write is correct - very correct . And it makes me think you're educated or quality controlling your language Also use of native without speaker. It sounds like youre a wild man, man - and not no native speaker of a language. But to get across, your english is really good- almost perfect. Just consume more written language in English - online, books, magazines, fan fiction, newspapers- whatever you find - flyers, advertisements, back of the cereal box

Not using contractions and the odd use of “tell” and “tell that well” kinda gives you away. Not even sure what you’re trying to say with “tell well” and “tell that well” in those contexts. As a native speaker I would drop just say that without the “well” and “that well.” Just sound really awkward.

Misuse of articles and overuse of “this”

Contractions give it away too, or the lack thereof. And I’m not even fluent.

I think it depends. For example, here I could tell because of "choices" rather than "choice" of written words. Some people are more able to pick up on these things. Some people, less so.

Phrasing. “How is it like,” is something no native speaker would ever say; it should be “WHAT is it like.” Also, failure to invert questions, which yes, we actually do that and so should every learner. “Why we don’t have any peanut butter?” will never, ever convince anyone you’re a native speaker; we’d all say, “Why DON’T WE HAVE any peanut butter?” Honestly, there’s some kind of weird resistance among learners to this concept. Not OP specifically—or at all—but this comes up a lot. “It doesn’t make any sense!” Too bad. (You know what we think doesn’t make any sense? Grammatical gender.)

Spelling and grammar by many native English speakers are so poor, especially in informal writing, that it can be quite difficult to spot non-native users of English other than the sort of error peculiar to a specific language group such as you describe.

Because of my choices of written words. This sounds very weird to me.

Do people actually not notice that you're a non-native speaker, or do they just not point it out? I mean just from this post it's very clear to me that you're not a native-speaker, but if we were discussing a different topic and I just randomly said, "Are you not an English speaker?" "What country are you originally from?" or something like that it would feel as if I'm criticising the person's English skills so I wouldn't do it. I work with non-native speakers daily and while their English is excellent there's a lot of tells that give them away (ignoring accent ofc) and it's just not something I would ever comment on unless they were making an actual mistake.

"..Working on to the side" Bing bing bing, foreigner alert! ;) Its 'on the side' hehe I usually pass as brazilian when typing but am not even close to passing when I speak haha

I can tell simply from your title. It's technically correct, but not a natural way a native speaker would phrase it.

I’ve noticed that swearing seems to be the hardest thing to do naturally in a second language. I’ve known quite a few Europeans that have lived in the US for decades and speak excellent English, but when they swear it always sounds a little bit off.

Your English is good, but definitely “ESL good”. You don’t write like a native speaker at all. 

When texting we drop a lot of unnecessary stuff and make typos. I wouldn't know your pattern of dropping stuff and making typos is foreign unless I have a lot of friends from your region of the globe making the same mistakes. Also I just don't generally correct texting

I'm a native speaker. Obviously in cases where I can't tell a writer is foreign, I won't know, but when I do notice?  Misusing or not using perfect verb tenses (those with have or had) or conditionals (your third paragraph does this), really weird phrasing (usually a direct translation that shouldn't be), wild misuse of common words, too many bone apple teas, or mentioning something as normal that's unheard of in the US.  Once I've guessed, I'll look for other tells, like not enough contractions, lack of phrasal verbs, or overuse of French and Latin derived words.  I read a lot of fan fiction. For some good writers, I'll make a first guess based on one or two errors in tens of thousands of words, then going forward look for subtler evidence.  Reading your post here, I wouldn't notice you weren't native unless I stopped to think about it, which I wouldn't mid conversation. You aren't using enough contractions. You say am instead of was or were when you're talking about a theoretical in your third paragraph, which would be a surprising error for a native speaker and one a really common error for a non native. Once I have those two, I now suspect that the awkward phrasing of many of your sentences may be because you're translating, rather than because you're an awkward writer. I'd guess you learned English in school and don't practice a lot of listening and speaking with native speakers? 

This post has multiple...slightly awkward... sentence constructions and word choices in it. I would assume that English is not your first language, based on those.

I would have been able to recognize it from this post. You use “well” a lot when a native would use easily we only really use well when talking about how we are doing “I’m doing well” “it’s going well” a native speaker wouldn’t say “how well can someone else tell that you are not a native” (also you are instead of you’re or honestly native speakers make the mistake of typing your ALL THE TIME) “I was surprised she could immediately tell well that I was a foreigner” sounds awkward just drop the well entirely tbh. “The first happened because I did let “florest”…” not sure if this is a typo but “did let” doesn’t make any sense should be “typed” “I was working on to the side” should be “I was working on the side” and a native would probably replace “I was” with “from” to be “from working on the side” except I just realized do you mean a side hustle that had your mind preoccupied? Or do you mean you were distracted doing something else while messaging? Because if you were distracted doing something else you should use the word “doing” not “working” “The second time happened when I was also texting an Italian guy” the also is redundant because you already put second it’s an immediate tell your either a younger kid 9-10 or your a non native speakers “I have asked him how he could tell that well…” should be “I asked him how he figured it out and he said…” I have asked is only really used in conversation, I find, when someone asked you if you’ve asked someone something then you reply “yes I have (asked them)” note you can’t form a contraction here and say “yes I’ve” that makes no sense. “How well can you tell that someone is not a native because of choice of written words.” This sentence is very clunky again well is clunky and you need a “their” after the because “how easily can you tell whether someone is a native speaker or not based on their word choice.” Also you write “choice of written words” a lot, and no one says that. it’s “word choice”. TLDR: not to be a downer but I’m sure people recognize you as non native all the time and just don’t mention because we see a lot of non native English speakers in our day to day lives (at least in Canada where I’m from) I see many more non native English speakers than native ones and it would be weird to point it out every time I notice. I would have been able to notice just from this post.

Even if you didn't give your forest/florest example, I could tell you weren't a native speaker. There is just an odd flow and cadence to how you write.

OK, I never would have guessed from your first example because I would have assumed it was a typo. The second one is more telling. I definitely sounds. How a foreigner may type something. But just as an aside, I would totally be normal for a native English speaker to say “OK, interesting” leaving out the ‘it’ and the ‘is’

I don’t know if this is useful, but here’s how I would write what you’ve written: I’m a native Portuguese speaker but I’ve used English for almost half of my life on a near daily basis. I often text native English speakers online for months without them noticing that I’m a foreigner because of my word choice. The last two time that someone realised I wasn’t a native because of word choice happened months ago: The first time was because I accidentally said “florest” like the Portuguese “floresta” instead of “forest” [side note your use of the word “did” here is incorrect for you meaning. Did is a clarifier in this sentence used to confirm that you performed an action. Very technical but also very obviously not a native use] It happened when I was texting and got distracted because I was focusing on something else. I was surprised that she could immediately tell I wasn’t a native English speaker just because of one word. The second time it happens I was texting an Italian guy online and he could immediately tell. I was really curious and asked him why he was so certain, and then he pointed out that….. Based on written language alone, how good are others at telling that you’re not a native speaker, and how confidently can you tell that someone is not a native? Do you believe that Latin language speakers can recognise each other more easily because of their word choices even when they’re speaking a different language? Do any of you have any habits or tendencies that out you as a native speaker when writing?