Is a "native speaker" level achievable?

I'd say it is possible, but it takes a LOT of time and practice. The more you listen, speak, read, and write in English, the better you become. Living in an English-speaking country or using English every day helps a lot.

Yeah it's possible. One of my neighbors growing up was a European immigrant who spoke English as well as anyone. They had an accent, and some linguistic quirks that showed it was a second language, but no one misunderstood them. That's all it takes in my eyes.

As far as reading and writing go, yes, you can probably be indistinguishable from or surpass the abilities of most native English speakers with a C1 fluency level. Speaking like a native English speaker, however, is much more difficult, especially if your native language isn’t one that’s similar to English like Dutch or Afrikaans. It is possible but you have to go above and beyond to perfect your pronunciations, word usage, and casual grammar structuring. It’s by no means unattainable, but it isn’t easy. Pedro Pascal immediately comes to mind as a non-native English speaker with a flawless American accent, although I can’t think of any other famous examples off the top of my head.

Yes, after years of immersion

Yes, it's definitely possible - with lots of practice and immersion in the environment. My husband is absolutely fluent enough to pass as a native speaker, most people don't even know English isn't his first language. He has a non-American accent and very occasionally uses a weird idiom, but after living and working in Scotland for 8 years and America for 9 more (not to mention being married to an American English speaker) he spends more time speaking English than his home language. The only thing that gives him away is when he needs to count anything. Apparently brains are weird about that and people almost always count in their first language. Go figure.

It's possible, but it's rare. I've been studying foreign languages for over 40 years. In that time, I have only 1 friend that could learn a foreign language in a couple of years, fluent without accent. He's up to 5 languages, all of which he speaks fluently. He could be mistaken for a native in any of those languages. He is a verified genius Everyone else, well, we do the best we can. Spanish is my first, second language. I speak it fluently and speak it every day. I've studied 4 others as well, but have abandoned them because at my age, it's unlikely I'll ever get to use them again. Anyway, although I get a lot of compliments on my Spanish, I will never be confused as a native speaker. If you have a super high IQ, and a gift for languages, you could achieve it, but even then the odds are against you. It is extremely difficult to learn a foreign language at native status once you've passed the age of ten. It's just how most of our brains work. The best of luck to you, but concentrate on just learning the language to the best of your ability. For me, learning other languages is just a tool that allows me to communicate with people that I otherwise wouldn't be able to. I could not care less if they think my accent is authentic.

I don't think so. Not that you can't be incredibly fluent and know more words and language rules than native speakers. But everyone in their native language (or languages if raised multilingual) instinctively can tell when something just sounds wrong in their language and they may not even understand why it's wrong, just that it is. You can't ever have that instinct for a language you learn later in life. If you learn enough language rules you won't need that instinct, I guess, but read enough English writing by someone who is fluent but learned it in school and there's just a slight off-ness about it sometimes where I think it's conforming to the instincts they have about their native language. It's the same for native English speakers and another language they learn.

I know one Korean guy who was like a native English speaker without ever leaving Korea. He didn't go to international school or anything. It was kind of crazy.

>Hence, I can imagine that a well-educated and eloquent non-native can be more proficient in a language than a native who just isn't educated enough. This is not true in general. Well-educated foreign speakers may have a good vocabulary, but their speech generally sounds backwards and awkward (without even taking the accent into consideration). My experience is that the best speakers have a musical ear and/or a good feel for interacting with and understanding people, or have an actual affinity with the culture. I know you said that you want to ignore the accent, but it actually plays a big part in how your speech is received. People with an accent (unless it is very slight) always sound a bit garbled somehow, as if nothing fully makes sense, even when the words are in the right order.

It very much depends what you mean by "native level". If you want to be able to pass as a native among other natives of a particular area, then that is extremely difficult because of residual accent and holes in a lifetime of cultural and linguistic exposure. My grandmother moved at age 5 and achieved this level, my grandfather at age 23 or so and did not despite having pretty much forgotten his native tongue in favour of English at this point - he's retained an accent though otherwise is indistinguishable from a native speaker. If you want be a non-native who speaks and understands extremely well, then that should be possible (though I'd say it'll be very difficult if you're not spending much time in spoken interactions with natives)

The idea behind this logic is that an L1* speaker has incredible intuition about how their own language works, even if they don't have the capacity or education to explain their reasoning. Put simply: they understand the vibes their language gives off, no matter the situation -- barring solely cultural differences, obviously. This is not a value judgement on the skill or ability of learners, or trying to put down people for not having a certain L1. It's just due to how language works in our brains. For example, there was a post earlier asking why a character in a show said "I came here to ask X" after entering a room, and the OP asked why the character didn't instead say "I come here to ask X". This is a very reasonable question touching on tense, and aspect, and telicity of different verbs in English. But several commenters pointed out that, to them, the two sentences were basically identical in meaning except that the present tense, "I come to X", sounded very formal and even stilted. While it's *technically* incorrect to say that the meanings are identical, the "vibe" they describe is quite true. Is that a reasonable conclusion that an L2 speaker could've come to, without the context of being exposed to the language in every facet of life since birth? I'm sure many people could, if they've been around the language long enough. But what about *every* time? All the hundreds and thousands of tiny, tiny differences in connotation -- can an advanced L2 speaker reliably pick up on every single one that an L1 speaker can? The answer is no; it's simply unrealistic in the grand majority of cases. This is not at all a judgement on L2 speakers' fluency: it's simply an observation that if we want to know what is grammatical in a language, we do not look to L2 speakers**. We take surveys of only L1 speakers in most linguistics studies, and we gauge our analyses on that data. Even professors who study linguistics -- who have spoken perfectly fluent English in their daily lives for 30 years, who no longer really even speak their first language -- will confirm an English intuition with an L1 speaker first. (And that goes for any language, of course.) *: Objecting here to the terms "native" and "non-native" since they're kind of yucky identity terms that also make bi/trilingualism a more confusing thing to talk about. **: Studying the L2 language of larger groups becomes interesting, such as children raised in heavy port towns speaking creoles, or even something like Irish in the modern day, but I'm not talking about groups here.

Ofcourse

I guess you can speak as fluent as a native speaker. But it will take a few years. I, personally, have been speaking since childhood and it's my basically my first and primary language. Am I'm only bounded by the fact that English is a foreign language for me. I think it's achievable for you if you try consistently and surround yourself with English media.

as a non-native speaker and a language trainer, yes. i've seen some people significantly improve in months, others in a couple of years.

I know literal children who have done it.

I almost got there when I lived in the States, and for a while I tried really hard. I kept reading and using English at work fir some tens of years. During that time, I got exposed to all different kinds of native English speakers and soon realized I was picking influences from a lot of these. So I finally gave up and speak as I do which probably sounds accented. Who cares?

Definitely possible, the biggest problem is getting rid of the accent, imo

i started learning english in 2010 when i was about 8, i was always good with languages and started being fluid around maybe 14, 15 ish? in 2018 when i was 16 i started watching youtube videos, movies and series in english and started making friends in english speaking fandom. i did some calls with english natives to help me practice and started translating so me of my fanfiction into english. now most of my online friends dont even speak my native language, my fiance is from america, i barely watch or read stuff in my native language anymore and think in english most of the time. ive heard people say i sound like a native, especially while texting. i think i probably have something of an accent going on even after training my accent but i just cant be fucked to put in the effort all the time. at this point i would say im almost as good in english as i am my native language. my grammar is a bit worse, there are some topics i learned about in my native language that i find difficult to explain in english, but the same is true for the other way around. im a bit more likely to make careless mistakes in english, especially when i'm tired, but generally skills in my native language and in english are on almost the same level. so yeah its possible! the earlier you start and the more immersive your approach, the easier and faster it is, though it will take a lot longer than just fluency so ask yourself if it's really worth the time and effort, especially if you're learning multiple languages

Achieving a "native speaker" level in English is a nuanced endeavor. While it's challenging to completely eliminate an accent, many non-native speakers attain proficiency comparable to native speakers. Language proficiency among native speakers varies widely; thus, a dedicated learner can surpass the proficiency of some native speakers. Immersion through living in an English-speaking environment or consistent daily use can significantly enhance language skills. Ultimately, with persistent practice and exposure, reaching a level akin to that of a native speaker is attainable. To further enrich your English vocabulary, consider watching this insightful video: [Master English ](https://youtu.be/gW81gIXt-t4)

It can be learnt in adulthood but will take a long time. For native speakers, they've been immersed in the language during their entire childhood, when your brain absorbs everything.

I'm in no way claiming I have achieved it but have you seen Hasanabi on Youtube? I was shocked to learn he moved to the US at 18 (he is originally from Turkey) and he speaks like a native. Maybe there's hope left for the rest of us lmao.

Well I will tell you right now, for what it’s worth - your post is much more eloquent, grammatically coherent and articulate than almost all the posts in my town’s Facebook group written by native speakers!

Yes. I know someone from Scandinavia who has native-level proficiency in English. He lived in the US for many years, married a native English speaker, and had children. His accent is very slight by this point.

It depends on how much do you willing to sacrifice , yes it's achievable but even a decade don't enough for many people , will you spend majority of your life for learning english ?

That's a great perspective! Fluency isn’t just about being a native speaker—it’s about how well you can express yourself. Plenty of non-natives reach a level where they communicate more clearly and effectively than some natives. The key is continuous learning, exposure, and practice. If you're looking for a structured way to improve, *Wonderful World English* has a great community with live classes and interactive activities. They even offer a 7-day free trial to try everything out. Plus, their IG community is 275k strong, so you're definitely not alone in this journey!

It's damn hard. My wife has lived in the US for close to 40 years, has an advanced degree from a US university, and still makes mistakes even a three year old would never make. That being said, don't beat yourself up. Most people, unless they're jerks, will cut you some slack as long as you're understandable.

I have two colleagues (both from Poland) who speak at a native level. They have not only lost their accents, they have adopted the local dialect and typical expressions. When they are asked to translate from their native language, they are stuttering at first, like they're out of practice. It helps that they're both married to Germans who don't speak any Polish, so the language both at home and at work is always German. Edit: wrong sub, but maybe still relevant. Thought this was /r/German.

I mean Nabokov and Conrad were alright I guess. Probably better at English prose that the average native-speaking fishmonger.

Wait, without ever being immersed? I doubt it. If you mean for someone who eventually does move to an English speaking place, I think it depends on what age you start. I’ve met a couple people who moved to the states around 12 years old or younger and they are indistinguishable from native speakers. But people who came around college age seem to have a slight accent that sticks around. Then you have my in laws who moved in their mid twenties and 35 years later still don’t speak at a native level. But they also never studied English before moving and there is a large community from their home country here, so they might have avoided speaking English early on.

Can only speak for English but I’d say pretty much impossible for anyone to learn to speak at a true native level if they are not continuously immersed before at least 10 or 11 years old. I have seen the rare person that began in the early to mid teens but it’s quite rare. Also I’d say for certain first language backgrounds it’s basically impossible if not fully immersed before age 4 or 5 - for instance Swiss, Russian, Eastern Europe languages.

Nabokov wrote Lolita. It can be done, which isn’t the same as saying anyone can do it.

Great topic! I agree - "native speaker" isn't a fixed level, and fluency varies even among natives. A well-educated non-native can definitely surpass some natives in vocabulary and writing. That said, cultural nuances and instinctive use of idioms can be tough without immersion. But near-native fluency? Absolutely possible! What do you think - can dedication alone match the depth of growing up with a language? 🤔

Look up Feli from Germany on YouTube. She came here to the US as an exchange student and has lived here for the better part of 10 years. As a native English speaker it’s hard for me to tell that English is a second language for her unless I listen to her for an extended amount of time. She has a few slight quirks and odd pronunciations every once in a while BUT even then I would never be able to place her native language as German, that’s how good her American accent is. For most Germans or Austrians speaking English, you can almost always pinpoint their accent right away.

The younger you are the easier it is to achieve. Two examples: My stepdad came to the US as an early teen. He was born and grew up in Germany. I did not meet him until his early 30s. When I met him he had no discernible accent and I did not know he was German until he revealed it a long while later. He actually would talk to us about how he could barely remember German anymore. I had a friend in high school whose family had come from Croatia when she was a young child (5-6). When I met her she had a way of speaking where her natural inflection was a bit different, but overall her use of language was entirely normal. I also grew up in a military area where it was normal to encounter various accents, so while these two individuals may have had some form of accent that I didn’t register due how normal it was to come into contact with several types of accents, neither of them had a way of speaking that blatantly pointed to English not being their native language.

I feel like coming across as a native speaker is the last 5% of learning a new language. By the time you hit 75%, you’re fluent and everyone understands you perfectly so I’m sure most English learners kind of stop putting in the effort at that point lol

Native skill is achievable I suppose but should not be anyone's goal imo. The schools here, Finland, dont focus on native level skills but communication. You don't need to be perfect user (because no one is). It is so much more important to have the skills to keep the conversation going: don't know the word for it in the language (for example): Can you use another language you know, can you explain what you mean, can you mime it, do you know synonyms/ antonyms. Etc.

If you're so fluent that you can tell jokes and make plays on words and consistently recognize what has the native speakers laughing at a speaker's linguistic joke, I think that's rarer than non native speakers who can speak eloquently. Especially if you exclude non native speakers who were never immersed in English until adulthood. I also think that native speakers who only rarely recognize humor in their native language are rarer than native speakers who lack eloquence.  I've met so many people who genuinely have great English with excellent fluency but where I have to tone down my sense of humor because they usually miss the joke and that's no fun. 

It's possible, but it's definitely harder when you're not surrounded by native speakers. Learning any language is hard, but having people who have spoken it for their whole lives to teach you makes it easier

I'm not a teacher of any sort but there's a term "native-like"

It's absolutely possible, as an American I've met many people who were from non-English speaking countries and spoke in perfect or near-perfect English, American accent and all. Since you asked if native speakers will always have an advantage over people who learned in "non-immersive" environments, I would say that trying to learn a language without immersion is like playing on nightmare difficulty and it will take much much longer and be much harder that way, but yes it is still possible. Although debatably conversation practice is still immersion even if it's not with a native speaker, and conversation practice is absolutely vital to reach the point of speaking like a native.

Native speaker here, some of ya'll have better grammar, vocabulary, spelling, and expression than I do. I think it's totally possible to master English past a native speaking level.

I am not expert, but I think that there are some people who can use the language as well as a native speaker (to the outside observer-- no idea what is going on in their heads to process language). A smaller number may sound indistinguishable from a native speaker. That said, they are not native speaker level, because that is not a level of language use. It is a descriptor. If a someone did not grow up speaking that language, they are not a native speaker. Personally, I don't often use this term anyway. I use L1, first language, home language etc if I can.

It's possible. I've had coworkers who came to the US as adults and I didn't realize they weren't native speakers until they told me where they were originally from. In all cases, they were married to an American and went to school in the US, whether for their bachelor's or for grad school. In other words, they were immersed due to being in a relationship with a native English speaker and had some formal education in English. The thing is that it's incredibly hard to get to that level as an adult learner. It's a lot of effort and you need to be in an immersive environment, but if you really want to get to that point, you can. The other thing is that you can still be advanced without being at the level of a native speaker. Most of the immigrants I know who came here as adults are at that level. Their English is very good and nobody has issues understanding them, but there are random times when a minor mispronunciation, grammar mistake, or awkward word choice kinda sets off a "oh right, they're not a native speaker" reaction in my brain. It's the same thing with a lot of my international coworkers. Their English is very good and nobody has trouble understanding, but there are little things (besides just their accent) that give it away if you talk to them long enough. tl;dr Possible yes, but very hard, and you'll be fine even not hitting that level. If you want to aim for that, go for it, but it's not necessary.

>> between those who were born with a language and those who studied it in a non-immersive environment? Without an immersive environment, it seems nearly impossible to reach native level of fluency. But like others are saying in the comments section, I've known plenty of people who live in my english-speaking country and speak at a native level of fluency, although they learned English later in life.

I think you can speak fluently and overcome accents barriers. But you will never pass the test of speaking in front of native speakers and they don’t pick up that this is your second language. This is applicable to every language. We can minimise the accent’s effects but we can not erase them %100

Let me tell you something. Most people who speak English as their first and only language speak it poorly. Don't worry about about it. You'll probably be better than most of the native speakers.